那個做心理暗示實驗,然後被木頭燙傷的女人到底怎麼回事?

馮紹群的《行為心理學》里提到這麼一個例子:

心理學家曾經在一次有關「暗示」的實驗中,用木頭將人燙傷。

實驗開始時,實驗者先從爐中鉗出一塊血紅的鐵塊,懸置在受試者手臂的上方約30厘米高出處,然後,逐漸放低,並問受試者感覺如何,直到受試者感到灼痛而無法忍受為止,然後,用黑布將受試者的雙眼蒙住,再用木塊代替鐵塊,重複上述過程,不斷告訴受試者「鐵塊」(實際上是木塊)正在降落,最後,假裝不小心將「鐵塊」掉在受試者手上,奇蹟出現了,受試者的手臂竟然被普通木塊燙起了一個大水泡。

那麼問題來了:這個例子是真實的嗎?有沒有權威機構做過實驗驗證?有沒有實驗數據?有哪個科學期刊做過專門報道?這個是不是三流小報的杜撰或是作者本人的主觀臆造?


兩條:

1、按照生理學這個實驗結果做不出來。你腦子覺得自己被燙傷了,但是你的皮膚不會說謊。細胞沒有壞死,血漿沒有越過血管壁向創面聚集,白細胞沒有趨化,它們對大腦激烈的電活動完全沒有反應。

2、還有一種可能,不過比較小概率。燙傷手臂的不是木頭,而是之前的鐵塊。注意到一個表述:靠近到受試者灼痛無法忍受的程度。幾百度的灼熱的鐵塊,足夠近的距離和足夠的時間,基本等同於把手放在火上烤,可以引起燒傷。然而燒傷程度並不是特別嚴重,上述反應並不是馬上表現出來。在緩慢出現反應的過程中,木塊落下來了。

要破解這個非常簡單,換個手扔木塊就行了。


若真如此,吸毒者/精神病人身上可能會出現各種燙傷


7/8 更新:

更新了找到的資料,自我感覺有一定量的乾貨

我覺得我找到出處了:

首先,根據樓上匿名用戶的提示,用hypnosis suggestion blister作為關鍵詞能對於這個現象的學術討論

早期的:

PsycNET - Display Record

Hypnosis, Suggestions, and Psychosomatic Phenomena: A New Look from the Standpoint of Recent Experimental Studies

後來講的比較在理的是這篇:意思是用催眠改變小範圍的血流以減緩疼痛

Hypnotic Suggestions for Blister Formation: Subjective and Physiological Effects

他們真的做了復原實驗

The influence of hypnotic suggestions for blister formation on subsequent physiological and subjective responses was investigated. After the administration of a formal hypnotic induction procedure, each of 40 adult subjects was given

(a) the suggestion that the back of one hand had been burned accidentally and

(b) repeated suggestions that a blister was forming there.

Although no blisters were evident as a result of this procedure, two of the subjects exhibited skin changes. Localized inflammation and swelling of the skin observed in one subject was attributed to self-injury. Localized inflammation observed in the other subject was interpreted as having a possible relationship to a genuine skin injury that the subject had suffered in the past. It was suggested that future research focus on the assessment of subjects with either (a) highly sensitive skin, or (b) a previous history of skin injury relevant to blister formation.

沒觀察到燒傷,但是40個人裡面有2個人的皮膚有變化。

主要結論是指向催眠之類的心理暗示改變了皮膚張度等等,可能引起了敏感皮膚或者有燒傷史的組織的反應。現象並不普遍

原理應該很清楚了,這個東西後來也沒人討論了。為什麼又出來了呢?是因為有自我激勵療法大師那這個做例子。

這個新的故事是」被冰塊燒傷「

The infamous ice cube/burn experiment

Ice cube on arm causes heat blister... True Story?

這兩個帖子裡面的談了各種變體。不鏽鋼,木塊等等,有人不少人說七十年代就聽說過

來看看傳播比較廣的版本:

I took my subject to a deep theta level. Even though he was deeply hypnotized, he had his eyes open and was watching me.

Then I told him that I was going to touch him with a red hot iron. I picked up a piece of stainless steel with a pair of pliers, and touched the back of his hand with it.

Even though the piece of stainless steel was not hot, when I touched him with it, he screamed. He felt the burn. He felt the heat...he experienced a positive hallucination...he was sensing more than what was there. The piece of stainless steel was still at room temperature.

Not only did he feel the pain, his body responded as if it has been burned.

Ninety percent of the subjects you do this to develop a little red spot, little red dot, as if they were burned with boiling water, or something like that.

Ten percent develop a blister. I was lucky to see that phenomenon. My subject developed a blister.

I asked myself, "What happened here? I didn"t burn him. Did I fool the healing process, the natural healing process of the body, to send healing chemistry to a spot that did not need it?"

I realized that that"s exactly what happened. My suggestion caused his healing mechanism to build a blister, build new skin under it, and get rid of that burned skin.

But the skin was not actually burned.

Then I wondered, "Could we send in extra healing chemistry to accelerate the healing process?

Of course you can do that. If you can do one, you can do the other. No question there.

扔給Google搜下去,找到這篇文章:

Stimulate the Body"s Healing Mechanism

Jose Silva是幹什麼的人呢?Silva Method

主要是寫講自我激勵療法的。這麼看,這個故事並不是心理學實驗,而是私人的 「實驗」 是主要測試催眠的,用以佐證「心理能改變身體狀態」這個論點,所以我覺得信度非常低

他的自我激勵療法,主要是六七十年代開始流行的(官網說1966年開始)

於是這兩個證據契合在一起不錯:六十年代用老段子編的新故事,正好七十年代開始人盡皆知,是個很合理的傳播鏈

之後還有別的出處:

I recently read a novel called "The House of Sight Shadow" by Nicholas Griffin (fiction). It was set in the early 1700"s in England and was of a medical theme.

An experiment was described in the book and I would like to know if the result of the experiment was completly ficticious or if it was something which has been documented.

The theory was that the body can be healed by the mind - the main character was a medical philosopher, convinced that illness and disease are psychosomatic.

For the experiment, subjects were told that they would be branded with a hot iron (subjects were poor hence willing to endure pain for money.) The experimenter (at 5:45am I know there is a better word but I just can"t recall what it is) bade the subject lie face-down with their back bare and, IIRC, blindfolded (or unable to see what was happening). The doctor then played around with the fire and iron, quenching it in water to show that it was indeed very hot, then re-heating it. He then told his subject that he would brand her - but instead of using the hot iron, he pressed a piece of ice to her back. She screamed as if being burnt and was in great pain and a blister/welt formed on her back. Thus, since she was of the impression that she was to be branded, her mind told her that she was indeed being branded.

OK, I can believe that bit - but the blister??? Sounds far-fetched to me.

Was this kind of experiment actually performed in the 18th century - and is the above a true account of results?

ABC Online Forum

這是本小說,講的是十八世紀英國的事情,但是是2001年出版的。

總之,不管怎麼樣,這個「實驗」都

1. 既不是生理學實驗

2. 也不是心理學實驗

可信度很低,重複性不高(催眠療法無法證偽,病人沒被燙傷可以說是「催眠失敗」)

作為心理學書籍裡面的論據,大大的不妥。

不過這四十年代一波,六十年代一波,兩千年一波的挖墳頻率,也能看出段子死灰復燃的傳播方向...

-----------------------------------------------------------

原答案:

這個實驗有傷害參與人員風險,通不過道德評審呀


有個類似的——說把人綁著,蒙上眼睛。在手腕上劃一下,然後滴水模擬滴血的聲音。被劃人以為是刀划了自己的手腕會感到疼痛,最後死掉。


謝邀,沒有聽說過


亞馬遜了一下,廣東旅遊出版社出版的心理學書籍,就別再看了。


抱歉~我找不到任何文獻資料~沒有視頻沒有完整實驗記錄~

這個又不是捕獲上帝粒子~需要數以億計的美鈔~一個短時間就可以完成操作簡單的實驗~在號稱擁有數十萬心理工作者地天朝沒人能完整地完成它?

心理作用產生水泡?嗯?長腦子裡不可見了?


你上Google學術搜hypnosis suggestion blister,確實有相關的期刊文章。40年代的文章大多說觀察到了這一實驗現象;60年代又有文章說之前的那些實驗設計都不嚴謹,缺少控制對照,結論不靠譜。近年的文章很少有這方面的,可能是已經被證偽了。


我的股票不會跌 我的股票不會跌


我說一個親身經歷的事。偶爾會做夢,有一次夢見被蛇咬住左手虎口,然後真的感覺到針扎似的疼,而且感覺得到是咬住部位的兩個點疼,然後用右手去抓蛇,這時候醒了,睜開眼首先看的左手虎口部位,神奇的是,這時候仍然有痛感。幾秒後就沒什麼感覺了。大腦自己玩的很嗨啊。


想起另外一個。證明蜘蛛的聽覺在腿上,先用大聲嚇蜘蛛一下,蜘蛛會跑;然後把蜘蛛腿切斷,再嚇,蜘蛛不跑了。證畢。


科學家把一個囚犯關在一棟封閉的房子里,把他的手固定住,然後在他手上割一刀再放水模擬滴血的聲音。過了100天科學家再來的時候,囚犯已經死了。證明了心理暗示可以致人死亡。


事實上,這就是鬼扯。

心理和生理是兩回事。心理可以影響生理反應,但是是有個限度的。

說簡單一點吧:

1.心理對生理的影響是無法改變人體自身結構的。

各位圍觀群眾聽懂了嗎?

再說簡單一點,如果可以。那麼金星等等就不用做變性手術了。

換個角度想一下,通過心理暗示使人認為自己被燙傷了,而且有事實上的應證。

這是不是心理暗示對生理結構的改變?

可能嗎?自己去想!

心理暗示至多影響內分泌!!!

2.心理暗示起的作用,受個體差異及外在環境的干擾非常大。

說通俗點,也就是因人而異,因地而異,因時而異。

但是心理暗示不是神符化水,喝了馬上就變超人,百毒不侵了。

生理暗示再怎麼樣,至少迄今為止,是無法證明能夠突破人體極限及打破物理規律的!

再說簡單一點,我國體育競技實際上是採用的全民體制,這個大家應該沒有問題吧?

尼瑪,都說心理暗示那麼牛逼,暗示一下,這個人瞬間就變鋼化鐵,還尼瑪搞舉國體制打鬼???

至於突破物理極限。如果能夠做到,請大家都去煉佛修道,何必還在紅塵中苦苦掙扎,接什麼愛國盤?唱什麼有信心?

最後,我再說一遍!!!

很重要的事!!!!!!!!

心理暗示方法很多,但是這個東西實際上是一個逐步科學化的東西,一直在成熟的路上。跟醫學是一樣的,以平常心看就可以了。

不要把他神秘化和極端化!!!!

除非是另有所圖的人!!!!!!!

也不要加那些什麼所謂的心理群!!!!!!

現在能夠幫人的不指望,想通過這個發財的倒是一波波的,也許是社會風氣使然!

建議各位知友,如果感覺心理有問題,不適應。首先是跟親朋好友,所熟悉了解的師長,聊一聊,再還是覺得沒什麼卵用,儘早去正規醫院的精神科去看看!!!

要諮詢也去正規醫院諮詢!!!!

不丟人!!!!!


那個假裝割動脈終被嚇死的,我覺得完全可信。但會不會呈現失血過多而死的癥狀我就不清楚了


說的好像很有道理,嗯沒聽說過具體有這個實驗


又是哪個國產段子手在瞎編心理學,心理學已經和成功學一樣了,額,在中國。


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